Education Forums
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Darwin123
Guest
|
 Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject: Aether Question on Magnetic Force on Electric Charge. |
 |
|
In terms of the aether theory, please explain the following.
1) The formula,
F=qV x B,
where F is the force vector on an electrical charge, q is the amount
of electrical charge, V is the velocity of the electrical charge, x is
the cross product and B is the magnetic field.
Note F, V and B are 3D vectors, q is a scalar, and x is a binary
vector operation.
I'll break question 1 down into less mathematical components.
2) When an electrical charged particle moves through a magnetic field,
why is the force vector perpendicular to the velocity vector?
3) When an electrical charged particle moves through a magnetic field,
why is the magnitude of the force proportional to the velocity?
4) Why is the magnitude of the force vector proportional to the
electrical charge at all?
I would appreciate any explanation based on the mechanical
properties of aether. I don't want an explanation directly based on
Maxwell's equations, except if you can connect the mechanical
properties of the aether to Maxwell's equations. I am not particularly
interested in space-time, cosmology, Big Bang, steady state or
inflationary cosmology. I am interested only in this obvious and
intuitive aether model of electromagnetic phenomena. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Uncle Ben
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: Aether Question on Magnetic Force on Electric Charge. |
|
|
On Jun 15, 1:03 pm, Darwin123 <drosen0...@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
In terms of the aether theory, please explain the following.
1) The formula,
F=qV x B,
where F is the force vector on an electrical charge, q is the amount
of electrical charge, V is the velocity of the electrical charge, x is
the cross product and B is the magnetic field.
Note F, V and B are 3D vectors, q is a scalar, and x is a binary
vector operation.
I'll break question 1 down into less mathematical components.
2) When an electrical charged particle moves through a magnetic field,
why is the force vector perpendicular to the velocity vector?
3) When an electrical charged particle moves through a magnetic field,
why is the magnitude of the force proportional to the velocity?
4) Why is the magnitude of the force vector proportional to the
electrical charge at all?
I would appreciate any explanation based on the mechanical
properties of aether. I don't want an explanation directly based on
Maxwell's equations, except if you can connect the mechanical
properties of the aether to Maxwell's equations. I am not particularly
interested in space-time, cosmology, Big Bang, steady state or
inflationary cosmology. I am interested only in this obvious and
intuitive aether model of electromagnetic phenomena.
|
Why does gravity pull things down? Why do atomic nucleii stay
together?
You're up against a fundamental fact about physics -- and science
generally. One way to put it is, science can't answer all why-
questions. Those that it cannot answer it calls "laws of nature."
Maxwell's equations are a law of nature. There are other ways to
express them, but ultimately that's what it boils down to. We can use
the laws of nature to explain other things, but just as a child may
ask "why" over and over after any explanation, we have to stop
somewhere.
This is a deep point that you may not want to accept. But sooner or
later you will have to.
Uncle Ben
Recovering physicist |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Uncle Ben
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: Aether Question on Magnetic Force on Electric Charge. |
|
|
On Jun 15, 1:03 pm, Darwin123 <drosen0...@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
In terms of the aether theory, please explain the following.
1) The formula,
F=qV x B,
where F is the force vector on an electrical charge, q is the amount
of electrical charge, V is the velocity of the electrical charge, x is
the cross product and B is the magnetic field.
Note F, V and B are 3D vectors, q is a scalar, and x is a binary
vector operation.
I'll break question 1 down into less mathematical components.
2) When an electrical charged particle moves through a magnetic field,
why is the force vector perpendicular to the velocity vector?
3) When an electrical charged particle moves through a magnetic field,
why is the magnitude of the force proportional to the velocity?
4) Why is the magnitude of the force vector proportional to the
electrical charge at all?
I would appreciate any explanation based on the mechanical
properties of aether. I don't want an explanation directly based on
Maxwell's equations, except if you can connect the mechanical
properties of the aether to Maxwell's equations. I am not particularly
interested in space-time, cosmology, Big Bang, steady state or
inflationary cosmology. I am interested only in this obvious and
intuitive aether model of electromagnetic phenomena.
|
Why does gravity pull things down? Why do atomic nucleii stay
together?
You're up against a fundamental fact about physics -- and science
generally. One way to put it is, science can't answer all why-
questions. Those that it cannot answer it calls "laws of nature."
Maxwell's equations are a law of nature. There are other ways to
express them, but ultimately that's what it boils down to. We can use
the laws of nature to explain other things, but just as a child may
ask "why" over and over after any explanation, we have to stop
somewhere.
This is a deep point that you may not want to accept. But sooner or
later you will have to.
Uncle Ben
Recovering physicist
PS: There isn't any aether. Or if there is one, it is so clever that
it hides from us perfectly and we cannot detect it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Igor
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: Aether Question on Magnetic Force on Electric Charge. |
|
|
On Jun 15, 1:03 pm, Darwin123 <drosen0...@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
In terms of the aether theory, please explain the following.
1) The formula,
F=qV x B,
where F is the force vector on an electrical charge, q is the amount
of electrical charge, V is the velocity of the electrical charge, x is
the cross product and B is the magnetic field.
Note F, V and B are 3D vectors, q is a scalar, and x is a binary
vector operation.
I'll break question 1 down into less mathematical components.
2) When an electrical charged particle moves through a magnetic field,
why is the force vector perpendicular to the velocity vector?
3) When an electrical charged particle moves through a magnetic field,
why is the magnitude of the force proportional to the velocity?
4) Why is the magnitude of the force vector proportional to the
electrical charge at all?
I would appreciate any explanation based on the mechanical
properties of aether. I don't want an explanation directly based on
Maxwell's equations, except if you can connect the mechanical
properties of the aether to Maxwell's equations. I am not particularly
interested in space-time, cosmology, Big Bang, steady state or
inflationary cosmology. I am interested only in this obvious and
intuitive aether model of electromagnetic phenomena.
|
Maybe next you'll ask us how phlogiston and caloric can account for
the high price of oil. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Michael Moroney
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:50 pm Post subject: Re: Aether Question on Magnetic Force on Electric Charge. |
|
|
Darwin123 <drosen0000@yahoo.com> writes:
| Quote: |
I would appreciate any explanation based on the mechanical
properties of aether. I don't want an explanation directly based on
Maxwell's equations, except if you can connect the mechanical
properties of the aether to Maxwell's equations. I am not particularly
interested in space-time, cosmology, Big Bang, steady state or
inflationary cosmology. I am interested only in this obvious and
intuitive aether model of electromagnetic phenomena.
|
Why does the sun appear to rise in the east, move across the sky and set
in the west?
I would appreciate any explanation based on the mechanical
properties of Apollo's fiery chariot. I don't want an explanation directly
based on celestial mechanics, except if you can connect the mechanical
properties of Apollo's chariot to celestial mechanics. I am not
particularly interested in Kepler's laws, cosmology, Big Bang, Newton's
laws or special relativity. I am interested only in this obvious and
intuitive Apollo's chariot model of the sunrise and sunset. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Spaceman
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:47 pm Post subject: Re: Aether Question on Magnetic Force on Electric Charge. |
|
|
Darwin123 wrote:
| Quote: |
2) When an electrical charged particle moves through a magnetic field,
why is the force vector perpendicular to the velocity vector?
|
Hmm? It is not actually.
It is both, one force is from stuff moving out of the way,
(perp vectors)
one force will come from the electron itself.
(velocity vect)
Are you saying that if I whip an electron at something,
it will not cause a force to show up at where it hits?
Is an electron massless so it can do such?
| Quote: |
3) When an electrical charged particle moves through a magnetic field,
why is the magnitude of the force proportional to the velocity?
|
too simple.
Kinetic energy works that way.
and actually a charged particle will do such without any
magnetic field there at all (although that is kinda tough to find).
You must think old fashion if you want mechanical realities.
| Quote: |
4) Why is the magnitude of the force vector proportional to the
electrical charge at all?
|
combination of both 2 and 3.
:)
| Quote: |
I would appreciate any explanation based on the mechanical
properties of aether. I don't want an explanation directly based on
Maxwell's equations, except if you can connect the mechanical
properties of the aether to Maxwell's equations. I am not particularly
interested in space-time, cosmology, Big Bang, steady state or
inflationary cosmology. I am interested only in this obvious and
intuitive aether model of electromagnetic phenomena.
|
Darwin,
To someone that really understands Maxwells equations,
That is like saying to Mr Newton, "Explain a lever and a fulcrum without
refering to a force or a mass"
:)
--
James M Driscoll Jr
Spaceman |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Spaceman
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:52 pm Post subject: Re: Aether Question on Magnetic Force on Electric Charge. |
|
|
Michael Moroney wrote:
| Quote: |
Darwin123 <drosen0000@yahoo.com> writes:
I would appreciate any explanation based on the mechanical
properties of aether. I don't want an explanation directly based on
Maxwell's equations, except if you can connect the mechanical
properties of the aether to Maxwell's equations. I am not
particularly interested in space-time, cosmology, Big Bang, steady
state or inflationary cosmology. I am interested only in this
obvious and intuitive aether model of electromagnetic phenomena.
Why does the sun appear to rise in the east, move across the sky and
set in the west?
I would appreciate any explanation based on the mechanical
properties of Apollo's fiery chariot. I don't want an explanation
directly based on celestial mechanics, except if you can connect the
mechanical properties of Apollo's chariot to celestial mechanics. I
am not particularly interested in Kepler's laws, cosmology, Big Bang,
Newton's laws or special relativity. I am interested only in this
obvious and intuitive Apollo's chariot model of the sunrise and
sunset.
|
Nice one Micheal, way better than mine.
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Uncle Al
Guest
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Aetherist
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:07 am Post subject: Re: Aether Question on Magnetic Force on Electric Charge. |
|
|
On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 10:03:27 -0700 (PDT), Darwin123 <drosen0000@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
In terms of the aether theory, please explain the following.
1) The formula,
F=qV x B,
where F is the force vector on an electrical charge, q is the amount
of electrical charge, V is the velocity of the electrical charge, x is
the cross product and B is the magnetic field.
Note F, V and B are 3D vectors, q is a scalar, and x is a binary
vector operation.
I'll break question 1 down into less mathematical components.
2) When an electrical charged particle moves through a magnetic field,
why is the force vector perpendicular to the velocity vector?
3) When an electrical charged particle moves through a magnetic field,
why is the magnitude of the force proportional to the velocity?
4) Why is the magnitude of the force vector proportional to the
electrical charge at all?
I would appreciate any explanation based on the mechanical
properties of aether. I don't want an explanation directly based on
Maxwell's equations, except if you can connect the mechanical
properties of the aether to Maxwell's equations. I am not particularly
interested in space-time, cosmology, Big Bang, steady state or
inflationary cosmology. I am interested only in this obvious and
intuitive aether model of electromagnetic phenomena.
|
Please read Maxwell's papers and you'll probably catch a clue...
Hint, why does a gyroscope deflect at an angle perpendicular to the
applied force attempting to deflect the rotational axis? Look at
Maxwell's physical model, what does it consist of? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Aetherist
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:13 am Post subject: Re: Aether Question on Magnetic Force on Electric Charge. |
|
|
On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 12:07:56 -0700, Aetherist <TheAetherist@best.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 10:03:27 -0700 (PDT), Darwin123 <drosen0000@yahoo.com> wrote:
In terms of the aether theory, please explain the following.
1) The formula,
F=qV x B,
where F is the force vector on an electrical charge, q is the amount
of electrical charge, V is the velocity of the electrical charge, x is
the cross product and B is the magnetic field.
Note F, V and B are 3D vectors, q is a scalar, and x is a binary
vector operation.
I'll break question 1 down into less mathematical components.
2) When an electrical charged particle moves through a magnetic field,
why is the force vector perpendicular to the velocity vector?
3) When an electrical charged particle moves through a magnetic field,
why is the magnitude of the force proportional to the velocity?
4) Why is the magnitude of the force vector proportional to the
electrical charge at all?
I would appreciate any explanation based on the mechanical
properties of aether. I don't want an explanation directly based on
Maxwell's equations, except if you can connect the mechanical
properties of the aether to Maxwell's equations. I am not particularly
interested in space-time, cosmology, Big Bang, steady state or
inflationary cosmology. I am interested only in this obvious and
intuitive aether model of electromagnetic phenomena.
Please read Maxwell's papers and you'll probably catch a clue...
Hint, why does a gyroscope deflect at an angle perpendicular to the
applied force attempting to deflect the rotational axis? Look at
Maxwell's physical model, what does it consist of?
|
Oh, and BTW, I tend to catagorize the basics of the aether medium
as follows,
Grad -> Gravitational Phenomena
Div -> Electrical Phenomena
Curl -> Magnetic Phenomena
The Big Three of nature... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
harry
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:33 am Post subject: Re: Aether Question on Magnetic Force on Electric Charge. |
|
|
"Uncle Al" <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> wrote in message
news:48556679.9B51217A@hate.spam.net...
You waste my time with that - can't you read?
[...]
| Quote: |
http://fsweb.berry.edu/academic/mans/clane/
|
"The page cannot be found "
F=qV x B is from Lorentz and does not violate Lorentz - can't you read?
Harald |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
harry
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:42 am Post subject: Re: Aether Question on Magnetic Force on Electric Charge. |
|
|
"Darwin123" <drosen0000@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1bc82a35-c93e-40e9-ab29-bb2d444b6304@z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
In terms of the aether theory, please explain the following.
1) The formula,
F=qV x B,
where F is the force vector on an electrical charge, q is the amount
of electrical charge, V is the velocity of the electrical charge, x is
the cross product and B is the magnetic field.
Note F, V and B are 3D vectors, q is a scalar, and x is a binary
vector operation.
I'll break question 1 down into less mathematical components.
2) When an electrical charged particle moves through a magnetic field,
why is the force vector perpendicular to the velocity vector?
3) When an electrical charged particle moves through a magnetic field,
why is the magnitude of the force proportional to the velocity?
4) Why is the magnitude of the force vector proportional to the
electrical charge at all?
I would appreciate any explanation based on the mechanical
properties of aether. I don't want an explanation directly based on
Maxwell's equations, except if you can connect the mechanical
properties of the aether to Maxwell's equations. I am not particularly
interested in space-time, cosmology, Big Bang, steady state or
inflationary cosmology. I am interested only in this obvious and
intuitive aether model of electromagnetic phenomena.
|
Did you look up Maxwell's model in his treaty? If I remember correctly, he
came to realize that there seem to be just too many models possible.
A more modern attempt is MIT's string-net theory
http://dao.mit.edu/8.08/chintr-bsn.pdf which sure looks interesting.
Harald |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
hhc314@yahoo.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:28 pm Post subject: Re: Aether Question on Magnetic Force on Electric Charge. |
|
|
On Jun 15, 3:33 pm, "harry" <harald.vanlintelButNotT...@epfl.ch>
wrote:
Actually Harold, Maxwell actually first published this relationship a
few years earlier than did Lorentz. I suspect that it predates even
Maxwell, so perhaps someone else will research it's earliest origins
and who actually deserves the credit for this rather useful
observation.
"Lorentz introduced this force in 1892.[5] However, the discovery of
the Lorentz force was before Lorentz's time. In particular, it can be
seen at equation (77) in Maxwell's 1861 paper On Physical Lines of
Force. Later, Maxwell listed it as equation "D" of his 1864 paper, A
Dynamical Theory of the Electromagnetic Field, as one of the eight
original Maxwell's equations.
Not my words, neither are they from a physics text, but from this
source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_force
I like to give credit where credit is due, beside the the symbology of
a vector math equation to usenet ASCII symbology tends to be a total
waste of time. It's easier simply to point readers to the first
equation listed under "History" in the cited link, which physicists
will recognize as being essentially the same equation taught in 1st
year physics as the Lorentz Force. (In actuality, Lorentz is best
known for his classic method of establishing the value of an Ohm.)
[See, Harnwell, "Principles of Electricity and Electromagnetism",
McGraw Hill. 1949.]
Where Maxwell obtained this little gem is to me interesting. Perhaps
he was inspired by the observations of Faraday, who history tells us
was a far better experimentalist than a gifted mathematician. Maxwell
was a gifted mathematician, as well as a physicist of no trivial note.
So to me, that explanation would make sense. Still, history becomes a
bit cloudy in the days around 1890. So, I have to ask the question,
whose earlier work predated that of Faraday, Maxwell, and Lorentz,
since all three appear to share a common nexus???
Silly I know, but it's a question that fascinates me. Sort of a
physics version of the "Cold Case Files."
Have fun thinking about this one.
Harry C. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
hhc314@yahoo.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: Aether Question on Magnetic Force on Electric Charge. |
|
|
On Jun 15, 3:42 pm, "harry" <harald.vanlintelButNotT...@epfl.ch>
wrote:
| Quote: |
"Darwin123" <drosen0...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1bc82a35-c93e-40e9-ab29-bb2d444b6304@z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
In terms of the aether theory, please explain the following.
1) The formula,
F=qV x B,
where F is the force vector on an electrical charge, q is the amount
of electrical charge, V is the velocity of the electrical charge, x is
the cross product and B is the magnetic field.
Note F, V and B are 3D vectors, q is a scalar, and x is a binary
vector operation.
I'll break question 1 down into less mathematical components.
2) When an electrical charged particle moves through a magnetic field,
why is the force vector perpendicular to the velocity vector?
3) When an electrical charged particle moves through a magnetic field,
why is the magnitude of the force proportional to the velocity?
4) Why is the magnitude of the force vector proportional to the
electrical charge at all?
I would appreciate any explanation based on the mechanical
properties of aether. I don't want an explanation directly based on
Maxwell's equations, except if you can connect the mechanical
properties of the aether to Maxwell's equations. I am not particularly
interested in space-time, cosmology, Big Bang, steady state or
inflationary cosmology. I am interested only in this obvious and
intuitive aether model of electromagnetic phenomena.
Did you look up Maxwell's model in his treaty? If I remember correctly, he
came to realize that there seem to be just too many models possible.
A more modern attempt is MIT's string-net theoryhttp://dao.mit.edu/8.08/chintr-bsn.pdfwhich sure looks interesting.
Harald- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
|
Yes Harry, years ago while a graduate student, I did. Maxwell was not
the only scientist to question if the paradigm was absolute, and only
novices accept that it is.
Beware of MIT. It a dangerous place because it teached people how to
think analytically -- Not simply quote rote knowledge!!!! Cal Tech
and Chicago are equally evil influences and and instruments of the
Devil!!! Dorothy, get too close to any of these places and you won't
be in Kansas anymore. :-)
Harry C. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Darwin123
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:07 pm Post subject: Re: Aether Question on Magnetic Force on Electric Charge. |
|
|
On Jun 15, 1:20 pm, Uncle Ben <b...@greenba.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jun 15, 1:03 pm, Darwin123 <drosen0...@yahoo.com> wrote:
In terms of the aether theory, please explain the following.
1) The formula,
F=qV x B,
where F is the force vector on an electrical charge, q is the amount
of electrical charge, V is the velocity of the electrical charge, x is
the cross product and B is the magnetic field.
Note F, V and B are 3D vectors, q is a scalar, and x is a binary
vector operation.
I'll break question 1 down into less mathematical components.
2) When an electrical charged particle moves through a magnetic field,
why is the force vector perpendicular to the velocity vector?
3) When an electrical charged particle moves through a magnetic field,
why is the magnitude of the force proportional to the velocity?
4) Why is the magnitude of the force vector proportional to the
electrical charge at all?
I would appreciate any explanation based on the mechanical
properties of aether. I don't want an explanation directly based on
Maxwell's equations, except if you can connect the mechanical
properties of the aether to Maxwell's equations. I am not particularly
interested in space-time, cosmology, Big Bang, steady state or
inflationary cosmology. I am interested only in this obvious and
intuitive aether model of electromagnetic phenomena.
Why does gravity pull things down? Why do atomic nucleii stay
together?
You're up against a fundamental fact about physics -- and science
generally. One way to put it is, science can't answer all why-
questions. Those that it cannot answer it calls "laws of nature."
My question wasn't about explaining Maxwell's equations. My |
question had the qualifier, "In terms of the aether theory." My
challenge was specifically aimed at supporters of the classical aether
theory, not just a call for any theory. I specifically asked if how
the aether could explain the magnetic field.
Einstein claimed that the aether theory wasn't a complete model of
electromagnetic forces because it was "redundant."
A lot of people on this forum are claiming that the old time aether
classical aether isn't dead. There are some loudmouths who claim that
Einstein somehow "conned" people into rejecting the classical aether.
My point is that the classical aether was dead even before Einstein
buried it.
I am sorry that I left out the word "classical." I have been
brought to understand there are quantum mechanical and relativistic
models out there that include a "substance" that distantly resembles
to the classical aether. These would not be the classical aether, yet
some can argue that such a model may be useful. I refer to the idea
that the aether is a substance acting according to Principia that
carries light. In the sense that Newton meant "substance," the aether
would not very different from the air that carries sound. This type of
model will probably never again be used to model light. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
93 Attacks blocked
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
