Education Forums
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Albertito
Guest
|
 Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: An infinitely precise clock would run at a rate of zero |
 |
|
On Jul 4, 2:24 am, "Sue..." <suzysewns...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 2, 10:21 am, Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
An infinitely precise clock would run at a rate of
zero seconds per second. Furthermore, it would not
be affected by any relativistic time dilation. The higher
the precission, the slower a clock runs. A clock
moving at speed v>0 wrt a frame has higher precission
that a clone clock at rest. A clock close to a massive
body has higher precission than other located further.
The precission of a clock is relative, you must always
ask with respect to which frame of reference is that
precission considered.
A *very precise* clock will be consistant with
the physical laws that depend on *time*.
invariance with respect to time translation gives
the well known law of conservation of energy>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noether's_theorem#Applications
A cesium atom that looses energy and slows because of
its proximity to a planet may be doing just the right
thing to reflect its total energy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperfine_structure#Theory
"Effect of Gravity on Nuclear Resonance"
R. V. Pound and J. L. Sniderhttp://link.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v13/p539
DOI: 10.1103/PhysRevLett.13.539
Sue...
|
A cesium atom that looses energy is, by definition,
a dissipative system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissipative
Noether's theorem does not apply to dissipative systems.
Puzzle: Suppose a *very precise* clock uses a very
extremely stable frequency of f = 2^(32582657) - 1 Hz.
That f number is actually a large prime number, it is
actually the largest known prime, as of June 2008,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_known_prime
There is no known hyperfine splitting in the ground
state of any atom in Nature that would yield exactly
that large f = 2^(32582657) - 1 Hz. Anyway, suppose
there is one of those atoms. There would be exactly
2^(32582657) - 1 clock ticks in 1 second. But, f is a
prime number, how many ticks are there in 1 nanosecond
(1 ns = one billionth of a second)? If the clock's frequency
is a prime number expressed in Hertzs, then any submultiple
division of 1 second would yield uncertainty. So, where
is the precission of that *very precise* clock ticking at
f = 2^(32582657) - 1 Hz? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Eric Gisse
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: An infinitely precise clock would run at a rate of zero |
|
|
On Jul 4, 4:03 am, Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 4, 2:24 am, "Sue..." <suzysewns...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
On Jul 2, 10:21 am, Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
An infinitely precise clock would run at a rate of
zero seconds per second. Furthermore, it would not
be affected by any relativistic time dilation. The higher
the precission, the slower a clock runs. A clock
moving at speed v>0 wrt a frame has higher precission
that a clone clock at rest. A clock close to a massive
body has higher precission than other located further.
The precission of a clock is relative, you must always
ask with respect to which frame of reference is that
precission considered.
A *very precise* clock will be consistant with
the physical laws that depend on *time*.
invariance with respect to time translation gives
the well known law of conservation of energy>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noether's_theorem#Applications
A cesium atom that looses energy and slows because of
its proximity to a planet may be doing just the right
thing to reflect its total energy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperfine_structure#Theory
"Effect of Gravity on Nuclear Resonance"
R. V. Pound and J. L. Sniderhttp://link.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v13/p539
DOI: 10.1103/PhysRevLett.13.539
Sue...
A cesium atom that looses energy is, by definition,
a dissipative system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissipative
Noether's theorem does not apply to dissipative systems.
Puzzle: Suppose a *very precise* clock uses a very
extremely stable frequency of f = 2^(32582657) - 1 Hz.
That f number is actually a large prime number, it is
actually the largest known prime, as of June 2008,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_known_prime
There is no known hyperfine splitting in the ground
state of any atom in Nature that would yield exactly
that large f = 2^(32582657) - 1 Hz. Anyway, suppose
there is one of those atoms. There would be exactly
2^(32582657) - 1 clock ticks in 1 second. But, f is a
prime number, how many ticks are there in 1 nanosecond
(1 ns = one billionth of a second)? If the clock's frequency
is a prime number expressed in Hertzs, then any submultiple
division of 1 second would yield uncertainty. So, where
is the precission of that *very precise* clock ticking at
f = 2^(32582657) - 1 Hz?
|
This is what happens when cranks play with numbers. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Albertito
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: An infinitely precise clock would run at a rate of zero |
|
|
On Jul 4, 2:10 pm, Eric Gisse <jowr...@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 4, 4:03 am, Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 4, 2:24 am, "Sue..." <suzysewns...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
On Jul 2, 10:21 am, Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
An infinitely precise clock would run at a rate of
zero seconds per second. Furthermore, it would not
be affected by any relativistic time dilation. The higher
the precission, the slower a clock runs. A clock
moving at speed v>0 wrt a frame has higher precission
that a clone clock at rest. A clock close to a massive
body has higher precission than other located further.
The precission of a clock is relative, you must always
ask with respect to which frame of reference is that
precission considered.
A *very precise* clock will be consistant with
the physical laws that depend on *time*.
invariance with respect to time translation gives
the well known law of conservation of energy>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noether's_theorem#Applications
A cesium atom that looses energy and slows because of
its proximity to a planet may be doing just the right
thing to reflect its total energy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperfine_structure#Theory
"Effect of Gravity on Nuclear Resonance"
R. V. Pound and J. L. Sniderhttp://link.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v13/p539
DOI: 10.1103/PhysRevLett.13.539
Sue...
A cesium atom that looses energy is, by definition,
a dissipative system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissipative
Noether's theorem does not apply to dissipative systems.
Puzzle: Suppose a *very precise* clock uses a very
extremely stable frequency of f = 2^(32582657) - 1 Hz.
That f number is actually a large prime number, it is
actually the largest known prime, as of June 2008,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_known_prime
There is no known hyperfine splitting in the ground
state of any atom in Nature that would yield exactly
that large f = 2^(32582657) - 1 Hz. Anyway, suppose
there is one of those atoms. There would be exactly
2^(32582657) - 1 clock ticks in 1 second. But, f is a
prime number, how many ticks are there in 1 nanosecond
(1 ns = one billionth of a second)? If the clock's frequency
is a prime number expressed in Hertzs, then any submultiple
division of 1 second would yield uncertainty. So, where
is the precission of that *very precise* clock ticking at
f = 2^(32582657) - 1 Hz?
|
[fetid crap snipped]
You have been killfiled, troll, don't bother replying
to me anymore. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Sue...
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: An infinitely precise clock would run at a rate of zero |
|
|
On Jul 4, 8:03 am, Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 4, 2:24 am, "Sue..." <suzysewns...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
On Jul 2, 10:21 am, Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
An infinitely precise clock would run at a rate of
zero seconds per second. Furthermore, it would not
be affected by any relativistic time dilation. The higher
the precission, the slower a clock runs. A clock
moving at speed v>0 wrt a frame has higher precission
that a clone clock at rest. A clock close to a massive
body has higher precission than other located further.
The precission of a clock is relative, you must always
ask with respect to which frame of reference is that
precission considered.
A *very precise* clock will be consistant with
the physical laws that depend on *time*.
invariance with respect to time translation gives
the well known law of conservation of energy
|
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noether's_theorem#Applications
Ya don't know that. The atom shakes the earth
but the earth shakes the atom right back
so it may be conserved just as the angular
momentum of an orbit.
| Quote: |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissipative
Noether's theorem does not apply to dissipative systems.
Puzzle: Suppose a *very precise* clock uses a very
extremely stable frequency of f = 2^(32582657) - 1 Hz.
That f number is actually a large prime number, it is
actually the largest known prime, as of June 2008,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_known_prime
There is no known hyperfine splitting in the ground
state of any atom in Nature that would yield exactly
that large f = 2^(32582657) - 1 Hz. Anyway, suppose
there is one of those atoms. There would be exactly
2^(32582657) - 1 clock ticks in 1 second. But, f is a
prime number, how many ticks are there in 1 nanosecond
(1 ns = one billionth of a second)? If the clock's frequency
is a prime number expressed in Hertzs, then any submultiple
division of 1 second would yield uncertainty. So, where
is the precission of that *very precise* clock ticking at
f = 2^(32582657) - 1 Hz?
|
Sounds like numerology or astrology to me.
Not my field of interest.
Sue... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
BURT
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: An infinitely precise clock would run at a rate of zero |
|
|
On Jul 2, 6:21 am, Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
An infinitely precise clock would run at a rate of
zero seconds per second. Furthermore, it would not
be affected by any relativistic time dilation. The higher
the precission, the slower a clock runs. A clock
moving at speed v>0 wrt a frame has higher precission
that a clone clock at rest. A clock close to a massive
body has higher precission than other located further.
The precission of a clock is relative, you must always
ask with respect to which frame of reference is that
precission considered.
|
God's clock would be acurate to the infinitesimal.
Mitch Raemsch |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
PD
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:02 am Post subject: Re: An infinitely precise clock would run at a rate of zero |
|
|
On Jul 2, 9:21 am, Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
An infinitely precise clock would run at a rate of
zero seconds per second. Furthermore, it would not
be affected by any relativistic time dilation. The higher
the precission, the slower a clock runs. A clock
moving at speed v>0 wrt a frame has higher precission
that a clone clock at rest. A clock close to a massive
body has higher precission than other located further.
The precission of a clock is relative, you must always
ask with respect to which frame of reference is that
precission considered.
|
Maybe it's just me, but it would seem that a clock that runs very fast
would be the one that is most precise. Consider an analog stopwatch,
which has a hand that sweeps once around every second, which is much
fast than the hand on a conventional watch.
PD |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Albertito
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:53 am Post subject: Re: An infinitely precise clock would run at a rate of zero |
|
|
On Jul 5, 1:02 am, PD <TheDraperFam...@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 2, 9:21 am, Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
An infinitely precise clock would run at a rate of
zero seconds per second. Furthermore, it would not
be affected by any relativistic time dilation. The higher
the precission, the slower a clock runs. A clock
moving at speed v>0 wrt a frame has higher precission
that a clone clock at rest. A clock close to a massive
body has higher precission than other located further.
The precission of a clock is relative, you must always
ask with respect to which frame of reference is that
precission considered.
Maybe it's just me, but it would seem that a clock that runs very fast
would be the one that is most precise. Consider an analog stopwatch,
which has a hand that sweeps once around every second, which is much
fast than the hand on a conventional watch.
PD
|
You confound fastness and precission.
Let's see deeply your example:
Although the hand of that analog stopwatch (ASW)
sweeps once around every second, that doesn't mean
that ASW had a clock's frequency higher than that
of a conventional watch (CW). The clock's frequency
is number of ticks per second. Actually, a ASW and
a CW might have the same clock's frequency. The
internal gears of both clock are what make the clock's
frequency be as a gear ratio. Suppose both the ASW
and the CW have the same clock's frequency f (same
precission = same ticks per second). Then, in ASW
the number of ticks per second (f) are uniformly
distributed along 360 degrees, but in CW the number
of ticks per second are uniformly distributed along
each 360/60 = 6 degrees. Therefore, although you see
the ASW running faster, that doesn't mean it had a higher
precission, because the motion of the hand is governed
by the ticks, so it is not a uniform motion, it is in
some sense discontinuous. Actually, the hand remains
stopped in a mark waiting for the next tick to occur
and then to advance to the next mark. The hand can
physically move from one mark to the next in smooth
motion, at definite mean speed v, but it must wait for
the next tick in each mark. You are free for featuring
the clock as you like concerning the hand's wait time (t)
for the next tick and the mean speed v to move to the
next mark, but both parameters must be related as
r/v + t = constant = 1/f
where, r is the distance between to adjacent
marks, and f is clock's frequency.
In a ASW the distance r between adjacent marks is larger
than that for a CW, so in the case where the wait time is
t=0 for both ASW and CW, you get v = r*f. Thus, if the
precission is the same (f), you have featured the ASW
with a higher speed v, because of the distance r between
adjacent marks is larger.
Let's see now what an infinitely precise clock would nean.
This would mean a clock's frequency of f = oo, so we'd get
r/v + t = 1/f = 0,
and this means there is no room for any wait time t, and the
speed v of the hand must be infinite if r is finite, or r zero
if v is finite. That v were infinite is physically unreal, and
that r=0 would mean the hand never advances in extension to a
next mark for a next tick. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Sue...
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: An infinitely precise clock would run at a rate of zero |
|
|
On Jul 5, 6:53 am, Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 5, 1:02 am, PD <TheDraperFam...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 2, 9:21 am, Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
An infinitely precise clock would run at a rate of
zero seconds per second. Furthermore, it would not
be affected by any relativistic time dilation. The higher
the precission, the slower a clock runs. A clock
moving at speed v>0 wrt a frame has higher precission
that a clone clock at rest. A clock close to a massive
body has higher precission than other located further.
The precission of a clock is relative, you must always
ask with respect to which frame of reference is that
precission considered.
Maybe it's just me, but it would seem that a clock that runs very fast
would be the one that is most precise. Consider an analog stopwatch,
which has a hand that sweeps once around every second, which is much
fast than the hand on a conventional watch.
PD
Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote: |
<< You confound fastness and precission. >>
The experimental clock, which measures the oscillations
of a mercury ion (an electrically charged atom) held
in an ultra-cold electromagnetic trap, produces “ticks”
at optical frequencies. Optical frequencies are much
higher than the microwave frequencies measured in
cesium atoms in NIST-F1, the national standard and
one of the world’s most accurate clocks. Higher
frequencies allow time to be divided into smaller
units, which increases precision. >>
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/mercury_atomic_clock.htm
Sue...
[...] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Albertito
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject: Re: An infinitely precise clock would run at a rate of zero |
|
|
On Jul 5, 1:37 pm, "Sue..." <suzysewns...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 5, 6:53 am, Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 5, 1:02 am, PD <TheDraperFam...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 2, 9:21 am, Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
An infinitely precise clock would run at a rate of
zero seconds per second. Furthermore, it would not
be affected by any relativistic time dilation. The higher
the precission, the slower a clock runs. A clock
moving at speed v>0 wrt a frame has higher precission
that a clone clock at rest. A clock close to a massive
body has higher precission than other located further.
The precission of a clock is relative, you must always
ask with respect to which frame of reference is that
precission considered.
Maybe it's just me, but it would seem that a clock that runs very fast
would be the one that is most precise. Consider an analog stopwatch,
which has a hand that sweeps once around every second, which is much
fast than the hand on a conventional watch.
PD
Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
You confound fastness and precission.
The experimental clock, which measures the oscillations
of a mercury ion (an electrically charged atom) held
in an ultra-cold electromagnetic trap, produces “ticks”
at optical frequencies. Optical frequencies are much
higher than the microwave frequencies measured in
cesium atoms in NIST-F1, the national standard and
one of the world’s most accurate clocks. Higher
frequencies allow time to be divided into smaller
units, which increases precision. >>http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/mercury_atomic_clock.htm
Sue...
[...]
|
So what? Yes, higher frequencies allow time to be
divided into smaller units, which increases precision,
but only is they are stable frequencies. Yet, an eventual
infinite frequency would be unphisical.
What Paul Draper was talking about is speed of the hand
of an analog stopwatch, but that has nothing to do with
clock's precission. As I've pointed out above, that speed
v is related to the frequency as
r/v + t = 1/f
where t is the wait time of the hand for the
next tick, and r is the distance that hand will
travel to the next mark.
Let v=c be the highest physical speed for that clock's hand.
Then,
r/c + t = 1/f,
f = 1/(r/c + t),
would be the highest physical clock's frequency for an
analog clock. You can't increase the frequency toward the
limit f --> oo, keeping t constant, because there must be
a limit for r, as r = c (1/f - t) being non-zero. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Sue...
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:11 pm Post subject: Re: An infinitely precise clock would run at a rate of zero |
|
|
On Jul 5, 9:29 am, Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 5, 1:37 pm, "Sue..." <suzysewns...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
On Jul 5, 6:53 am, Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 5, 1:02 am, PD <TheDraperFam...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 2, 9:21 am, Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
An infinitely precise clock would run at a rate of
zero seconds per second. Furthermore, it would not
be affected by any relativistic time dilation. The higher
the precission, the slower a clock runs. A clock
moving at speed v>0 wrt a frame has higher precission
that a clone clock at rest. A clock close to a massive
body has higher precission than other located further.
The precission of a clock is relative, you must always
ask with respect to which frame of reference is that
precission considered.
Maybe it's just me, but it would seem that a clock that runs very fast
would be the one that is most precise. Consider an analog stopwatch,
which has a hand that sweeps once around every second, which is much
fast than the hand on a conventional watch.
PD
Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
You confound fastness and precission.
The experimental clock, which measures the oscillations
of a mercury ion (an electrically charged atom) held
in an ultra-cold electromagnetic trap, produces “ticks”
at optical frequencies. Optical frequencies are much
higher than the microwave frequencies measured in
cesium atoms in NIST-F1, the national standard and
one of the world’s most accurate clocks. Higher
frequencies allow time to be divided into smaller
units, which increases precision. >>http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/mercury_atomic_clock.htm
Sue...
[...]
So what? Yes, higher frequencies allow time to be
divided into smaller units, which increases precision,
but only is they are stable frequencies. Yet, an eventual
infinite frequency would be unphisical.
What Paul Draper was talking about is speed of the hand
of an analog stopwatch, but that has nothing to do with
clock's precission. As I've pointed out above, that speed
v is related to the frequency as
r/v + t = 1/f
where t is the wait time of the hand for the
next tick, and r is the distance that hand will
travel to the next mark.
Let v=c be the highest physical speed for that clock's hand.
Then,
r/c + t = 1/f,
f = 1/(r/c + t),
would be the highest physical clock's frequency for an
analog clock. You can't increase the frequency toward the
limit f --> oo, keeping t constant, because there must be
a limit for r, as r = c (1/f - t) being non-zero.
|
Maybe both of you should do a little research to
see if high precision clocks even have hands.
http://www.disneythemes.com/store/mickey_metal_date.jpg
 )
http://tf.nist.gov/
Sue... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Albertito
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:35 pm Post subject: Re: An infinitely precise clock would run at a rate of zero |
|
|
On Jul 5, 4:11 pm, "Sue..." <suzysewns...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 5, 9:29 am, Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 5, 1:37 pm, "Sue..." <suzysewns...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
On Jul 5, 6:53 am, Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 5, 1:02 am, PD <TheDraperFam...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 2, 9:21 am, Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
An infinitely precise clock would run at a rate of
zero seconds per second. Furthermore, it would not
be affected by any relativistic time dilation. The higher
the precission, the slower a clock runs. A clock
moving at speed v>0 wrt a frame has higher precission
that a clone clock at rest. A clock close to a massive
body has higher precission than other located further.
The precission of a clock is relative, you must always
ask with respect to which frame of reference is that
precission considered.
Maybe it's just me, but it would seem that a clock that runs very fast
would be the one that is most precise. Consider an analog stopwatch,
which has a hand that sweeps once around every second, which is much
fast than the hand on a conventional watch.
PD
Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
You confound fastness and precission.
The experimental clock, which measures the oscillations
of a mercury ion (an electrically charged atom) held
in an ultra-cold electromagnetic trap, produces “ticks”
at optical frequencies. Optical frequencies are much
higher than the microwave frequencies measured in
cesium atoms in NIST-F1, the national standard and
one of the world’s most accurate clocks. Higher
frequencies allow time to be divided into smaller
units, which increases precision. >>http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/mercury_atomic_clock.htm
Sue...
[...]
So what? Yes, higher frequencies allow time to be
divided into smaller units, which increases precision,
but only is they are stable frequencies. Yet, an eventual
infinite frequency would be unphisical.
What Paul Draper was talking about is speed of the hand
of an analog stopwatch, but that has nothing to do with
clock's precission. As I've pointed out above, that speed
v is related to the frequency as
r/v + t = 1/f
where t is the wait time of the hand for the
next tick, and r is the distance that hand will
travel to the next mark.
Let v=c be the highest physical speed for that clock's hand.
Then,
r/c + t = 1/f,
f = 1/(r/c + t),
would be the highest physical clock's frequency for an
analog clock. You can't increase the frequency toward the
limit f --> oo, keeping t constant, because there must be
a limit for r, as r = c (1/f - t) being non-zero.
Maybe both of you should do a little research to
see if high precision clocks even have hands.
http://www.disneythemes.com/store/mickey_metal_date.jpg
)
http://tf.nist.gov/
Sue...
|
Hey fella, we are talking about physical macroscopic
clocks. A clock always has at least one 'hand'. If
f is the clock frequency then F = f/k is a display
frequency (hand), where k would be a large interger.
Then, we'd say the clock's frequency is a harmonic of
the display frequency F. Question, if the clock's
frequency is infinite, f=oo, what large finite interger
k could you find to accomplish a display frequency as
F = f/k? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Sue...
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:47 pm Post subject: Re: An infinitely precise clock would run at a rate of zero |
|
|
On Jul 5, 11:35 am, Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 5, 4:11 pm, "Sue..." <suzysewns...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
On Jul 5, 9:29 am, Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 5, 1:37 pm, "Sue..." <suzysewns...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
On Jul 5, 6:53 am, Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 5, 1:02 am, PD <TheDraperFam...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 2, 9:21 am, Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
An infinitely precise clock would run at a rate of
zero seconds per second. Furthermore, it would not
be affected by any relativistic time dilation. The higher
the precission, the slower a clock runs. A clock
moving at speed v>0 wrt a frame has higher precission
that a clone clock at rest. A clock close to a massive
body has higher precission than other located further.
The precission of a clock is relative, you must always
ask with respect to which frame of reference is that
precission considered.
Maybe it's just me, but it would seem that a clock that runs very fast
would be the one that is most precise. Consider an analog stopwatch,
which has a hand that sweeps once around every second, which is much
fast than the hand on a conventional watch.
PD
Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
You confound fastness and precission.
The experimental clock, which measures the oscillations
of a mercury ion (an electrically charged atom) held
in an ultra-cold electromagnetic trap, produces “ticks”
at optical frequencies. Optical frequencies are much
higher than the microwave frequencies measured in
cesium atoms in NIST-F1, the national standard and
one of the world’s most accurate clocks. Higher
frequencies allow time to be divided into smaller
units, which increases precision. >>http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/mercury_atomic_clock.htm
Sue...
[...]
So what? Yes, higher frequencies allow time to be
divided into smaller units, which increases precision,
but only is they are stable frequencies. Yet, an eventual
infinite frequency would be unphisical.
What Paul Draper was talking about is speed of the hand
of an analog stopwatch, but that has nothing to do with
clock's precission. As I've pointed out above, that speed
v is related to the frequency as
r/v + t = 1/f
where t is the wait time of the hand for the
next tick, and r is the distance that hand will
travel to the next mark.
Let v=c be the highest physical speed for that clock's hand.
Then,
r/c + t = 1/f,
f = 1/(r/c + t),
would be the highest physical clock's frequency for an
analog clock. You can't increase the frequency toward the
limit f --> oo, keeping t constant, because there must be
a limit for r, as r = c (1/f - t) being non-zero.
Maybe both of you should do a little research to
see if high precision clocks even have hands.
http://www.disneythemes.com/store/mickey_metal_date.jpg
)
http://tf.nist.gov/
Sue...
|
[...]
| Quote: |
Question, if the clock's
frequency is infinite, f=oo, what large finite interger
k could you find to accomplish a display frequency as
F = f/k?
|
Google: vernier "dividing engine"
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=vernier+%22dividing+engine%22&btnG=Google+Search
Sue... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Albertito
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: An infinitely precise clock would run at a rate of zero |
|
|
On Jul 5, 4:47 pm, "Sue..." <suzysewns...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 5, 11:35 am, Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 5, 4:11 pm, "Sue..." <suzysewns...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
On Jul 5, 9:29 am, Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 5, 1:37 pm, "Sue..." <suzysewns...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
On Jul 5, 6:53 am, Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 5, 1:02 am, PD <TheDraperFam...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 2, 9:21 am, Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
An infinitely precise clock would run at a rate of
zero seconds per second. Furthermore, it would not
be affected by any relativistic time dilation. The higher
the precission, the slower a clock runs. A clock
moving at speed v>0 wrt a frame has higher precission
that a clone clock at rest. A clock close to a massive
body has higher precission than other located further.
The precission of a clock is relative, you must always
ask with respect to which frame of reference is that
precission considered.
Maybe it's just me, but it would seem that a clock that runs very fast
would be the one that is most precise. Consider an analog stopwatch,
which has a hand that sweeps once around every second, which is much
fast than the hand on a conventional watch.
PD
Albertito <albertito1...@gmail.com> wrote:
You confound fastness and precission.
The experimental clock, which measures the oscillations
of a mercury ion (an electrically charged atom) held
in an ultra-cold electromagnetic trap, produces “ticks”
at optical frequencies. Optical frequencies are much
higher than the microwave frequencies measured in
cesium atoms in NIST-F1, the national standard and
one of the world’s most accurate clocks. Higher
frequencies allow time to be divided into smaller
units, which increases precision. >>http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/mercury_atomic_clock.htm
Sue...
[...]
So what? Yes, higher frequencies allow time to be
divided into smaller units, which increases precision,
but only is they are stable frequencies. Yet, an eventual
infinite frequency would be unphisical.
What Paul Draper was talking about is speed of the hand
of an analog stopwatch, but that has nothing to do with
clock's precission. As I've pointed out above, that speed
v is related to the frequency as
r/v + t = 1/f
where t is the wait time of the hand for the
next tick, and r is the distance that hand will
travel to the next mark.
Let v=c be the highest physical speed for that clock's hand.
Then,
r/c + t = 1/f,
f = 1/(r/c + t),
would be the highest physical clock's frequency for an
analog clock. You can't increase the frequency toward the
limit f --> oo, keeping t constant, because there must be
a limit for r, as r = c (1/f - t) being non-zero.
Maybe both of you should do a little research to
see if high precision clocks even have hands.
http://www.disneythemes.com/store/mickey_metal_date.jpg
)
http://tf.nist.gov/
Sue...
[...]
Question, if the clock's
frequency is infinite, f=oo, what large finite interger
k could you find to accomplish a display frequency as
F = f/k?
Google: vernier "dividing engine"http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=vernier+%22dividing+engine%22&bt...
Sue...
|
There is not such thing as a perfect "dividing engine".
Energy-time uncertainty principle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle#Energy-time_uncertainty_principle |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
97 Attacks blocked
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
